What would happen - Political changes after WWII

[Jan Hyrman]

Hello everyone,

Would anyone want to discuss how the political map of Europe would look like if the Americans were allowed to cross the Demarcation Line and go to help the Prague Uprising on 5th May 1945?

Arguably, they would be able to liberate a considerable part of Czechoslovakia, or at least most of Bohemia, before the Soviets would be able to divert some of their troops from their drive into Germany.

If Czechoslovakia would fall under the influence of western Allies, it would definetely brake the line which the Big Three drew across central Europe, creating a loophole in the future Iron Curtain.

What would happen?
Would the Soviets try to threaten or even engage the U.S. Army by force?
Would the post-war division of Europe be different if all this really happen?
Perhaps the Soviets would pull back from some of the occupied territories to form a less winding line of defence?

I would be happy to hear from anyone who would like to comment on this.

Best wishes,
Jan

[andrew]

Oh, I well it seems to me that everyone likes to say that it would be hard to speculate due to the fact that there are to many variables. However, If the US would have lent a "hand" to the insurgent Czech forces we would have started the offensive of WWIII! When Churchill and Stalin met to discuss the future of ALL the Eastern European people they divided the countries and deemed that neither would interfer with the others satellites. Although, American and Soviet "intervention" into the asian countries seemed like a step toward war their was not the same lines as Our influence and Their influence. Think about this... If the USSR had invaded Western Germany what would have happened. I believe the results would be the same. It would have led to WWIII, however here's one for you ~ Could America Defeat the Soviet Union? let's even narrow it down a little, could America defeat Russia in the European theatre (that let's us avoid an invasion of USSR). And if a US victory was possible how would it be achieved?
Have a Good Day!

[Jan Hyrman]

Andrew,

Thanks for your thoughts. A bit chilling thought of a WWIII - it would probably still be called WWII, though

Regarding the chances of the U.S. and Russia, it would be a "Clash of the Titans", but Russian heavy tanks and tank killers would definetely prove to be tough opponents for American armour. I will have to look into a comparison of U.S. and Russian tanks, but I fancy Russian tanks, built with the vast experience of the tank warfare in the Eastern Front, would prevail.

If we leave aside the nuclear factor, which would prove to be decisive within a few months of the Prague Uprising, an internal rebellion similar to the one of Lenin's, calling for peace and the end of the incredible weapon manufacturing efforts in Russia, could be possible as well, although under Stalin it could prove devastating.

[andrew]

On the contrary... the Russian IS-3 wins hands down! However, the Soviets were mass producing the T-34 even till the end of the war and the Americans just unveiled the M-26. Although the Americans only had 200 Pershings at the close of the war they were to become the Main armament. The Pershing could still hold it's own against the IS-3 with it's 90mm frontal gun and the T-34 with a 75mm gun was no match. I have to say that the Americans would be a tough opponant but in the end it would be the American technology that would win the day!
Later,
Andrew

[Jan Hyrman]

Andrew,

You appear to have some useful background for this - any articles you would like to post to the History Project's Second World War archive?

Regarding U.S. technology, maybe you are right, as quantity of T-34, frequently Russia's main asset, not always prevails.

Regarding T-34/85, you don't have to tell me how long they remained in production or how many there were. Here in the Czech Republic, we had one standing as a WWII memorial at every second town square (Czechoslovakia even produced them under licence).

What is your main subject of interest?

[andrew]

Well, I would have to say that my main study would have to be WWII in general. Specifically, I have an extensive base of the German/Russian war and Africa Corps but I still have snippets from all over. I like to read all points of view but I must say that I have read a considerable amount from the German perspective.

Recently, I have done some reading on WWI ~ I posted a work here called The Battle of Jutland, and Psychological Warefare. I started and posted a work in progress on Operation Barbarossa but I have some reading to do to refresh my memory. In the Future I hope to do an Essay on U-boats from WWI thru WWII. I read a great book called Raiders of the Deep. About WWI U-boats and I find the underwater wolves very intriging.

What's your area of expertise?

Andrew

[Jan Hyrman]

Andrew,

You can find my profile in The Team section of The History Project at
www.thehistoryproject.co.uk/page1.htm

My main field of interest is the Free Czechoslovak Army, Czechoslovak units under French command during the Battle of France in 1940, units under British command which successively fought in Syria, Tobruk, the Palestine, Tobruk again during 1941-42 and then in Northwest Europe in 1944.

The results of my research can be found at my website below.

Cheers,
Jan

[Tardy]

I dont think that the US would have dared, and if they had i doubt Stalin could have stopped his generals from crushing an American army in Czechoslovaikia. Though I must say i can't see the Americans being provoked into full scale war with a battle weary Soviet Army at this point even after such an event. It would have probably resulted in a race for more territory disregarding previous agreements and an intense cold war.

[andrew]

Well I agree that the World Was tired of war and so were the Americans, I 'd have to agree that they wouldn't dare start another. However, we're discussing the outcome if a war started not the plausibility of it starting.

I hate to see everyone say that they believe that Russia would smash the US. I believe it would be a good while for the countries to realign all of their military dispositions but after 6 months the US would have the entire US Navy operating in the Black Sea, Baltic Sea, the North Sea, around Murmansk, Vladivostok, and any other water way around Russia. The army would be mainly based in Western Germany and the Marines would be tipping the spearhead after transferring from the Pacific!

finally and most significantly, the USAF would be gaining air superiority over the IRON CURTAIN. Anything with a red star or any Russian insignia would be blown to smithereens. Let's just roll back to Battle of the Bulge if we could. Fog was the Germans closest ally in that battle, after 3 days it lifted and the angels from the air halted the entire front within moments. Do not underestimate the power of the sky!

[Tardy]

The comparison to the battle of the Bulge is a bit odd. The Germans were outnumbered, had almost no air cover and a major problem with supplies of everything, yet they still roughed the US quite a lot. The soviets suffered none of these problems. And I think people tend to underestimate the Russian Airforce, we know (from the Korean War) that they had some superb pilots and by the end of the war their planes were of good quality. by this time the luftwaffe pilots certainly had no illusions about the caliber of their enemy. It would also have been a war the the US military simply was not geared to fight, while the Red Army had spent the last 4 years fighting large scale land battles, and was tailor made for doing so.

[andrew]

My comparision to the Battle of the Bulge was to stress how important Air Power is. The Germans roughed up the Americans while their was fog and no air attacks on them. Hence why the Russians would not be able to move one unit with the USAF above their heads.

The USAF was a magnificant airforce! How many German cities did Russia destroy by air power alone? And while your pondering that which of the latest Russian planes could match the P-51 Mustang? Also, Consider the fact that the American and British defeated the Luftawaffe and at the same time the US had to defeat Japan's air force which was another massive accomplishment. Russia's airforce had periods of maintaining local superiority but they were not considered an air power by any means.

[Tardy]

I just think it would be extremely difficult for the Americans to establish air superiority in the battlefields that would be decisive in the immediate phase. And to that end, if you are basing your argument of the idea that the US would automatically be able to establish said supremecy over Russia immediatly then I think we'll have to agree to dissagree.

[andrew]

America already had air superiority in the battlefields that would be decisive in the immediate phase over Germany. With most of the bomber and fighter forces in England the US could easily transfer them to France or West Germany after pushing Russia out of East Germany.

I am not saying the America would immediately have air superiority over all of Russia at all. But you may have a slight misperception of the two actual forces. The American Air Force was exponentially a finer instrument than the Soviet AF at the end of WWII. In terms of technology, numbers, pilots, etc. across the board US outweighs the Soviets.

Now, in terms of tanks it's an entirely different situation. However, Air Power is on top of the food chain. Hence why I would say that America would dominate the Soviets.

The Soviet did develop a sophisticated AF over the years after WWII even to a point that they could compete. However, they did not possess even a shadow of that during and immediately after the war!

I enjoy debating with you also, it would be great if you would start a new topic off. I saw that you started one on Uzbekistan however that's one topic I haven't followed at all!

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