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Post by Ben Burgess on Mar 8, 2005 13:21:16 GMT -5
Descrived by many as the 'turning point of the Second World War' the failure of Barbarossa was to see the Wehrmacht retreat from Russia after suffering some of the most appauling defeats and conditions ever endured on the battlefield. From Stalingrad to Kursk the German troops were constantly outnumbered and undermined by the Red Army and, despite initial successes, appear never to have really stood a chance. If we are to believe some historians, however, had Hitler not personally ordered a halt to the advance on Moscow in favour of an all out attack on the Caucasus region the Third Reich would have defeated the Soviet Union. Moreover, it has been argued that even after Kursk a defensive line could have been drawn up and the battle still won had Hitler not ordered occupied areas to be defended to the last man. What is clear is that Barbarossa was perhaps Germany's biggest gamble and subsequently its biggest loss. A combination of underestimation, huge delays, lack of preparation and battle fatigue on the part of individual units all played there parts. In thsi debate we discuss what was to blame for this defeat and, more importantly, was the campaign simply destined to failure even before it had begun? Suggested link: www.yoursites.co.uk/5.htmwww.yoursites.co.uk/operation_barbarossa_the_initial_stages_of_the_campaign.htm |
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Post by Luke on Apr 14, 2005 11:31:15 GMT -5
I think the mistake was splitting up the German Army (Wehrmacht, SS) into various groups.
Instead of having one army group heading south, and this one going to moscow and another one directed towards leningrad etc., I would of simply had one united massive army group, with all the tanks and aircraft and men together going from city to city, one after the other and demolishing them. It would be an unstoppable wave of power rolling over the steppes of russia and finally pushing the enemy into siberia, and forcing them either to surrender or into the sea.
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Post by Tardy on May 11, 2005 1:26:29 GMT -5
While we now know the massive risk that the Germans were taking, and how wafer thin their armies in the east really were, the Russians were not so sure. And while he fanatically denounced the very idea after the war, its pretty clear that had the germans casually suggested a armistace with massive Russian territories going to the Germans at the height of their success, Stalins government would have in all likelihood agreed to it (think another Brest Livosk treaty).
In my opinion that is where the greatest error and the greatest hypathetical lies. Not in the tactics dictated by Hitler (though they were clearly the cause of much confusion) but it the strange strategic goals. Had the Nazis aimed simply to temporarily nullify the Soviets as a potential threat they could have done so by enacting a "Vichy Russia" agreement as the Wermacht was driving on Moscow. Certainly noone on either side saw any possible future but a Nazi Victory. Unfortunately for the Germans (and fortunately for everyone else) Hitler's bizare war goals (essentially the annexation and subjegation of all of Russia west of the Urals) coupled with the pointless cruelty inflicted on the conquered people's (who in some cases initially welcomed the Germans as liberators from soviet oppression) made a political deal impossible.
Of course, and hypothetical agreement giving Germany the Ukraine, the Cuacuses, Bellorussia and the baltic states would probably collapse eventually. But it would have given both the Wermacht and the German people breathing enough breathing room to make DDay impossible and a very different history in general.
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andrew
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Post by andrew on May 11, 2005 7:42:15 GMT -5
Well for starters having the Germans pull all there armies into one armee group is a interesting idea. However, more numbers and congestion would be more a pain than an asset. The German could route whole Russian armies with a hand full of mechanized divisions so having more doesn't necessarily mean better. I think the roads leading to Moscow would be immobile with so many Germans. Plus quick shifts in German lines helped keep the offensive moving, they couldn't use these tactics if the front was so narrow.
Stalin sign a mid war agreement! I could not imagine that going over. After the winter of '41 the Russians had already endured the worst. Things, for the Russians, got considerably better so I don't believe they would have reached an armistice. Plus after the first phase of the operation the Russians outnumbered the Germans in tanks, troops, and winter quarters. The Soviets were on the verge of losing three major cities, and with stout determination never lost one!!! So IF they found a way to sign a cease-fire the Germans had 0 cards to bring to the table.
More moderately, and of coarse coming from Ben Burgess, I agree entirely that a slight modification to armee group center would have had a huge impact. Guderian says time and again that after he had taken Smolensk that the route to Moscow was open. Hitler ordered and immediate turn about to capture Kiev, what the Hell is the significance in Kiev compared to Moscow? Anyway Moscow WAS in reach and all Guderian had to do was take it. With Russia divided in two and no alternative railroad to reach the East it would have been a very different war!!
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Post by Tardy on May 13, 2005 1:00:08 GMT -5
I do know that stalin's governement made at least one attempt to sign a treaty during the first phase (though I know I'm going to have to back that up so bare with me). But basically I was saying it was impossible simply because of the general aim of the campaign. Any tactical changes could be sumed up by saying that Hitler should have stayed out of the details of operations. But thats another can of worms
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andrew
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Post by andrew on May 13, 2005 8:58:49 GMT -5
Well I suppose I was confused about your original post. I thought you were saying the Germans should have sued for peace at the height of their success. Well in terms of ground taken that must have been somewhere between 42/43. However, if you look at it in terms of how ineffective the Russian military was then the Germans had most of their success in 41. Still I could never see the Germans even considering an armistice at this point because as you said everyone believed the Germans would win! No one expected the Russians would industrialize as quickly as they did. Before the campaign even started the Germans realized they had to win it quick because they could not win a war of attrition. It was very similar to the scenario of Japan vs. America.
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Post by jackchen on Apr 26, 2008 22:11:27 GMT -5
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