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Malta
Dec 3, 2004 12:17:03 GMT -5
Post by Afrika Korps on Dec 3, 2004 12:17:03 GMT -5
In 1941, Rommel takes Tobruk. After it falls has to decide what to do. He wants to attack Malta by paratroops but Rommel also wants to keep the British on their heels. He decides to attack. The British retreat all the way to El Alamein. But General Montgomery takes command of the British forces. At this same time Rommel is losing more than half of his supplies to air attacks coming from Malta. Whereas the British were amassing a collection of new units.
As Rommels tank rolled up toward El Alamein he decided to attack to the South and roll up from the rear. The German's even captured fake defense drawn up by the British to alow the Germans to think there was little defense in the south. When Rommel attacked the RAF launch a full air raid including US B-24's pound the German attack.
When Rommel got to the British lines in the South he realized that the defenses were strong. Artillery batteries were shelling the entire assault, and tank battalions were engaging all of Rommel's tanks. After take significant casualties he called of the attack.
I believe that if Rommel would have waited in Tobruk for an attack on Malta then the Luftwafe could wreak havoc on the British convoys and the Germans would dominate the Mediterrean.
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Malta
Dec 8, 2004 9:44:52 GMT -5
Post by Jan Hyrman on Dec 8, 2004 9:44:52 GMT -5
If Malta had fallen, who knows what would have happened. The Germans may have done big harm to Allied convoy routes through the Mediterranean, but as long as the British retained Gibraltar and maintained a route around Africa, they would perhaps be able to hold out till Operation Torch in 1942. Preparations for Torch would hardly be hastened as they were actually pretty strained all the same.
Anyhow, you are definetely right. Losing Malta would mean a heavy blow to the Allies.
By the way, what do you think was the biggest asset Rommel had to his advantage in North Africa (except, perhaps, his personal skills)?
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andrew
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Malta
Dec 9, 2004 10:57:31 GMT -5
Post by andrew on Dec 9, 2004 10:57:31 GMT -5
Well, I guess I would have to say that the biggest asset was that Rommel could pretty much operate independently. If Hitler would have told Guderian that whatever Guderian wanted he could have then perhaps Guderian could have had the same heroism that Rommel accumulated. If you look at Rommel's past he was the same type of officer in the first World War as he was in the second. He was extremely influenced by Guderian in the sense of mobile warfare and the hard to accept concept of disregarding your flanks and rear.
But Unlike Guderian, Rommel was able to stay out of the attention and the micromanaging of the High Command and Hitler. This is easily compared to Hitler's restricting Rommel in France, once Rommel was far far away and the invasion of Russia took precedence Rommel was able to perfect mechanized warfare.
This total power that he controlled until Kesserling arrived was also combined with the fact that he actually controlled the whole African theatre. Which gave him the advantage of not having to facilitate other commanders or other German forces. He was the Supreme commander and in that way he was able to take all the blame and all the credit.
Now, these two advantages (out of Berlins microscope, and no other German forces or commanders to compete with) do not mean that anything great will happen but without them no matter how amazing the commander nothing will come of it. From his great vantage point in Africa Rommel changed his overall tactics slightly but his fine tuning and creating the Africa korps as one unit was legendary.
His troops trained all the time. He oversaw all and made corrections when needed. The product of his efforts was that the infantry and panzer divisions and Luftwaffe squads merged into a single unit. The cooperation between very different services in the Africa Korps was remarkable. No other commander achieved the same level of cohesiveness. Rommel never achieved victory by numbers or by overpowering impregnable defenses, Rommel's success were all due to the fact that when he needed it he could stun his enemies and while they were regrouping he would capitalize on their confusion. By massing all his units and combining the panzers, infantry, and dive bombers to break the will of their enemies at a strategic point of the battle.
British would have to withstand simultaneous pincer movements on both of their flanks, while infantry massed for a frontal assault. As the attack rolled forward the spear of the pincers would curl behind the British and the infantry would begin the assault. The British manned the machine guns, anti-tank guns, and trenches and just as the German infantry arrived to commence battle the Luftwaffe Stukas and artillery would reign upon the British position. After diving for cover and trying evacuating the wounding the Germans would pouncing on the dazed defenders and the Panzers would seal off the corridor.
Rommel was almost always outnumbered. And even when things looked like the whole Theatre could collapse he would attack. I believe, the Elite Africa Korps was the most successful fighting force ever...
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Malta
Dec 14, 2004 3:23:29 GMT -5
Post by Jan Hyrman on Dec 14, 2004 3:23:29 GMT -5
Andrew,
You certainly give good reasons for your conclusion. The point is that even if the Afrika Korps were the best fighting force ever, they lost in the end due to the extremely strained supply lines and other factors influencing the overall disposition of the German Army - trouble on the Eastern Front, the failure to secure safe convoy routes within the Mediterranean, and others.
The best fighting force ever would, in my opinion, have to address all aspects of fighting a war in a remote country, such as Tunisia, Lybia or Cyrenaica, the more if it lies on another continent. I do suppose that the armies amassed for Operation Overlord were the best fighting force seen during WWII. The operation was superbly designed and it did not omit any aspect of warfare - including logistics. It might not have had all those legendary commanders and tactical geniuses, but it did succeed to accomplish its missions and more - to win the war.
Thanks for both of the posts, though, very interesting reading!
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andrew
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Malta
Dec 14, 2004 9:16:22 GMT -5
Post by andrew on Dec 14, 2004 9:16:22 GMT -5
Well, I try to isolate Rommel in his own sphere. I do this because Hitler's Idiotic Commands effected all the German army's abilities in a negative way. But the Reason I could not say that the Normandy Invasion was the best fighting force ever has everything to do with Odds. Everyone knows that the Russians beat the Germans, if know one worried about the spread of communism there might not even been a liberation of France and West Germany. The Germans could not pull enough divisions from the East to stop the Brits and the Americans because the Russian Drive pace would have quickened.
I may agree with you if the skies over France were more even footed and if the Germans outnumbered the British and the Americans by at least double.
Rommel, with two panzer divisions and a handful of infantry divisions, battled double and when considering operations battle Axe and Crusader even up to triple and quadruple times the number of enemies. He never enjoyed superiority but conquered nonetheless.
After the Battle of Kursk in '43 it was clear the Germans were beatin and their war machine destroyed. So, the Normandy invasion was a mopping up an already beaten enemy but when put in Rommel’s usual perspective looks more like the Dardanelles!
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Malta
Dec 22, 2004 2:35:25 GMT -5
Post by Jan Hyrman on Dec 22, 2004 2:35:25 GMT -5
Andrew, As usual, reading your post was a pleasure, thanks for your comments. You are certainly right about the superiority aspect and it is indeed correct that Wehrmacht's best divisions were partly kept away on the Eastern Front. The Allies in Normandy were facing units comprising from soldiers reconvalescencing in Normandy or people dragged into the Wehrmacht as the so-called "Hilfswillige", or "Hiwis", however, there were units of the Waffen-SS and the Panzerdivisionen lurking off Calais, awaiting the real invasion to take placejust because the deception operations caused Hitler to stick to his "invasion-to-hit-Calais-push-them-back-into-the-sea" plans. The Russian contribution to victory in WWII was, undoubtedly, immense, yet the sheer numbers of losses and troops thrown into action on the Eastern front do not diminish the contribution of the western Allies. Sure, Wehrmacht had to keep most of its units in the east to face the Soviets, however, this was only because of the exceedingly long front lines stretching all across the west of Russia and the Ukraine and the incredible number of Red Army troops storming their lines all the time. (Of course, I'm not saying that Red Army had no commanders or no idea about military tactics, but their ferocity and numbers often prevailed.) The invasion armada in Normandy wasn't anywhere near going for a picnic on the beach, they had a time as hard as any Soviet soldier in the Eastern Front, despite having more elaborate equipment and armament at hand. As I said, I still admire the Normandy operation as a whole, the preparations, the deception operations... But you are certainly correct in stating that Rommel's Afrika-Korps were equally admirable for the conditions under which they had to fight and under which they were able to win. Thanks for the posts - Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!  |
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andrew
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Malta
Dec 22, 2004 10:34:11 GMT -5
Post by andrew on Dec 22, 2004 10:34:11 GMT -5
Jan,
It's truly hard to compare the two completely different efforts. But I agree that the amount of deception with an entire fake army complete with tanks, barracks, transports, and Patton was an amazing stunt. That June 6th was quite unbelievable with the Naval and Aerial bombardments and the largest amphibious assault the world had ever known. So, by no means to I mean to negate that effort. But, like when I watch any Rocky movies, my heart goes to the underdog and Rommel is the most easily admired underdog.
Good to hear from you and Happy Holidays to you also.
Andrew
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Malta
Jan 5, 2005 3:13:06 GMT -5
Post by Jan Hyrman on Jan 5, 2005 3:13:06 GMT -5
Andrew,
Did you get to read Rick Atkinson's Army at Dawn? It's an exciting book and it does offer some very interesting insights into the desert war - and Rommel as well!
Recommended reading, indeed.
Kind regards,
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andrew
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Malta
Jan 5, 2005 11:31:01 GMT -5
Post by andrew on Jan 5, 2005 11:31:01 GMT -5
Thanks I'll have to check it out. I read one by a Brit called Rommel: the desert fox, and one by Paul Carell. Both very good. I've read others but I'd have to look at home to get there titles. It's been awhile since i read on.
An awesome book I finished not to long ago was a good on Friderick the Great. And one called Raiders of the Deep! That's an awesome book about WWI u-boats.
Have a good Day
Andrew
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Malta
Jan 5, 2005 15:55:22 GMT -5
Post by Ben Burgess on Jan 5, 2005 15:55:22 GMT -5
Anybody think we could benefit (or would use) a book review/recommendation board? Let me know and I'll add a board if you want?
Ben
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andrew
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Malta
Jan 5, 2005 16:28:41 GMT -5
Post by andrew on Jan 5, 2005 16:28:41 GMT -5
Sure at least for ideas to read. I guess it would be hard to find some that we all read. But we could pick from a list and read it and discuss it. That would help me remain focused!
Andrew
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Malta
Jan 6, 2005 2:12:39 GMT -5
Post by Jan Hyrman on Jan 6, 2005 2:12:39 GMT -5
Ben,
The book review board would be a good idea, there are tens of books which would deserve more attention.
Andrew,
Atkinson discusses about Rommel only as a part of the overall North African campaign following Operation Torch, so the book offers only a partial insight into Rommel's Afrika-Korps campaign.
Have fun,
Jan
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Malta
Jan 6, 2005 18:33:40 GMT -5
Post by Ben Burgess on Jan 6, 2005 18:33:40 GMT -5
As per request the new board has been added, so get filling it!  Ben |
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Malta
Sept 6, 2007 22:44:18 GMT -5
Post by lovezizi0902 on Sept 6, 2007 22:44:18 GMT -5
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Malta
Mar 5, 2008 5:04:21 GMT -5
Post by asdasdfasdf on Mar 5, 2008 5:04:21 GMT -5
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